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	Comments on: Remembering A Passover Long Ago	</title>
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	<description>His Jewish Life and Teaching</description>
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		<title>
		By: Lois Tverberg		</title>
		<link>https://ourrabbijesus.com/articles/under-the-passover-moon/#comment-15413</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lois Tverberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2013 21:19:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orj.mu.rocketwood.com/?p=313#comment-15413</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://ourrabbijesus.com/articles/under-the-passover-moon/#comment-15409&quot;&gt;Dr. Michael Wodlinger&lt;/a&gt;.

Thank you for sharing. Do you have a reference from rabbinic literature about a “Seder Kittan”? 

It’s traditional nowadays to have two Passover Seder meals on successive nights. But I can’t see how that could have been possible when the Passover was a pilgrim feast, not a family observance. People traveled for days and spent a lot of money to buy a lamb to bring to the Temple. The lambs were sacrificed all together and then roasted for hours for one festive meal. I can imagine that rabbis might study the feast observance beforehand with their disciples, but I can&#039;t see how they could actually celebrate it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://ourrabbijesus.com/articles/under-the-passover-moon/#comment-15409">Dr. Michael Wodlinger</a>.</p>
<p>Thank you for sharing. Do you have a reference from rabbinic literature about a “Seder Kittan”? </p>
<p>It’s traditional nowadays to have two Passover Seder meals on successive nights. But I can’t see how that could have been possible when the Passover was a pilgrim feast, not a family observance. People traveled for days and spent a lot of money to buy a lamb to bring to the Temple. The lambs were sacrificed all together and then roasted for hours for one festive meal. I can imagine that rabbis might study the feast observance beforehand with their disciples, but I can&#8217;t see how they could actually celebrate it.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dr. Michael Wodlinger		</title>
		<link>https://ourrabbijesus.com/articles/under-the-passover-moon/#comment-15409</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dr. Michael Wodlinger]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2013 18:20:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orj.mu.rocketwood.com/?p=313#comment-15409</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Shalom, Lois.  I have been following this discussion, with some interest. Something no one has yet mentioned is the fact there were two (2) Seders; the first, called the Seder Kittan, the Little Seder, was held by rabbis to teach their talmidim, disciples how to conduct their own Seders the following night. For Yeshua, this was a teaching Seder, as He wanted His talmidim to know more about His future and theirs, once He left earth.  I do this helps shed some additional light on the issue.
Adonai&#039;s Blessings
Michael]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shalom, Lois.  I have been following this discussion, with some interest. Something no one has yet mentioned is the fact there were two (2) Seders; the first, called the Seder Kittan, the Little Seder, was held by rabbis to teach their talmidim, disciples how to conduct their own Seders the following night. For Yeshua, this was a teaching Seder, as He wanted His talmidim to know more about His future and theirs, once He left earth.  I do this helps shed some additional light on the issue.<br />
Adonai&#8217;s Blessings<br />
Michael</p>
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		<title>
		By: Adele Wolfaardt		</title>
		<link>https://ourrabbijesus.com/articles/under-the-passover-moon/#comment-31</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Adele Wolfaardt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Apr 2009 19:43:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orj.mu.rocketwood.com/?p=313#comment-31</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thank you for all the wonderful information!
I think it is important to know that in the Hebrew mindset the sequence of how things happened in a narrative format,is not so important, as it would be in the Western mindset.(Difficult for me as a very analitical person to grasp, but still important to remember!!)

Just want to ask:A day starts at sunset. So, does it mean that 14th Nisan start 18h00 that night, in other words, the Wednesday was the 13th, and on 18h00 Wednesday it changed to be the 14th of Nisan ? So it is the Sedar meal,Passover (which was like a Shabbath?)on the 14th,Feast of Unleavened bread the 15th ,which was Friday, Shabbath the 16th, and Jesus rose sometime after 18h00 on that first Sunday ?? And when does the ‘Feast of Firstfruit’ start?
Thank you once again!!
Shalom!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for all the wonderful information!<br />
I think it is important to know that in the Hebrew mindset the sequence of how things happened in a narrative format,is not so important, as it would be in the Western mindset.(Difficult for me as a very analitical person to grasp, but still important to remember!!)</p>
<p>Just want to ask:A day starts at sunset. So, does it mean that 14th Nisan start 18h00 that night, in other words, the Wednesday was the 13th, and on 18h00 Wednesday it changed to be the 14th of Nisan ? So it is the Sedar meal,Passover (which was like a Shabbath?)on the 14th,Feast of Unleavened bread the 15th ,which was Friday, Shabbath the 16th, and Jesus rose sometime after 18h00 on that first Sunday ?? And when does the ‘Feast of Firstfruit’ start?<br />
Thank you once again!!<br />
Shalom!</p>
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		<title>
		By: E. Ray Bedford		</title>
		<link>https://ourrabbijesus.com/articles/under-the-passover-moon/#comment-29</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[E. Ray Bedford]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 19:42:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orj.mu.rocketwood.com/?p=313#comment-29</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The author’s answers regarding the timing of the Last Supper can only be explained as an insult to the author of the Gospel according to John. Be that as it may, all of the discussion is blown away by the author with the words, “It is important not to override the plain… ...to coincide with the way we think prophecy should play out.” Does this statement mean that the prophecies regarding Jonah are not to be believed? Does it mean that Jesus did not, indeed remain in the grave three days AND three nights as that prophecy declared and as Jesus himself stated?

Me thinks the author bends scripture a little too much to fit Jewish practice to be satisfactory to many of her Evangelical readers.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The author’s answers regarding the timing of the Last Supper can only be explained as an insult to the author of the Gospel according to John. Be that as it may, all of the discussion is blown away by the author with the words, “It is important not to override the plain… &#8230;to coincide with the way we think prophecy should play out.” Does this statement mean that the prophecies regarding Jonah are not to be believed? Does it mean that Jesus did not, indeed remain in the grave three days AND three nights as that prophecy declared and as Jesus himself stated?</p>
<p>Me thinks the author bends scripture a little too much to fit Jewish practice to be satisfactory to many of her Evangelical readers.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Lois Tverberg		</title>
		<link>https://ourrabbijesus.com/articles/under-the-passover-moon/#comment-28</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lois Tverberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:41:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orj.mu.rocketwood.com/?p=313#comment-28</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[My apologies to Dr. Sloss for my delayed reply about your question about whether the Last Supper was a Passover.

I found a superb series of Passover articles that discuss and answer each of your questions at Derek Leman’s blog. The post most pertinent to your question here is at this link:

http://derek4messiah.wordpress.com/2009/03/11/passover-and-the-last-supper-part-3/

Another great resource is Dr. Steve Notley’s article “Jesus and the Essene Passover” at jerusalemperspective.com.

Leman’s article above points out several facts about John’s gospel that make it very unlikely that even he was suggesting that they ate the Last Supper the night before Passover. The other three gospels make it very plain that they ate a Seder meal, like when Jesus said, “I eagerly desire to eat this Passover with you” in Luke 22:15.

Leman also addresses your desire to line up Jesus’ actions to literally fulfill God’s timing. Passover, don’t forget, lasted over the 24 hour period after the Seder meal was eaten. He points out that Jesus died at the time of the national Passover sacrifice in the Temple, the “chagigah.”

It’s important not to override the plain reading of the text to force it to coincide with the way we think prophecy should play out. Now, as I read Jesus’ death as occurring in the wee hours after the Passover meal, I see exactly how it fits into prophecy.

The night of Passover was called “a night of vigil” because their expectation was that God would carry out his final redemption of his people at that time, just as he did when he redeemed Israel from Egypt. That’s why the cup of Elijah is poured, because Elijah would herald the Messiah.

And look what happened - on the first Passover, the Angel of Death redeemed Israel by bringing the death of Egypt’s firstborn sons. On that very same night in the Gospels we see the redemption of all believers because of the death of God’s firstborn son.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My apologies to Dr. Sloss for my delayed reply about your question about whether the Last Supper was a Passover.</p>
<p>I found a superb series of Passover articles that discuss and answer each of your questions at Derek Leman’s blog. The post most pertinent to your question here is at this link:</p>
<p><a href="http://derek4messiah.wordpress.com/2009/03/11/passover-and-the-last-supper-part-3/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://derek4messiah.wordpress.com/2009/03/11/passover-and-the-last-supper-part-3/</a></p>
<p>Another great resource is Dr. Steve Notley’s article “Jesus and the Essene Passover” at jerusalemperspective.com.</p>
<p>Leman’s article above points out several facts about John’s gospel that make it very unlikely that even he was suggesting that they ate the Last Supper the night before Passover. The other three gospels make it very plain that they ate a Seder meal, like when Jesus said, “I eagerly desire to eat this Passover with you” in Luke 22:15.</p>
<p>Leman also addresses your desire to line up Jesus’ actions to literally fulfill God’s timing. Passover, don’t forget, lasted over the 24 hour period after the Seder meal was eaten. He points out that Jesus died at the time of the national Passover sacrifice in the Temple, the “chagigah.”</p>
<p>It’s important not to override the plain reading of the text to force it to coincide with the way we think prophecy should play out. Now, as I read Jesus’ death as occurring in the wee hours after the Passover meal, I see exactly how it fits into prophecy.</p>
<p>The night of Passover was called “a night of vigil” because their expectation was that God would carry out his final redemption of his people at that time, just as he did when he redeemed Israel from Egypt. That’s why the cup of Elijah is poured, because Elijah would herald the Messiah.</p>
<p>And look what happened &#8211; on the first Passover, the Angel of Death redeemed Israel by bringing the death of Egypt’s firstborn sons. On that very same night in the Gospels we see the redemption of all believers because of the death of God’s firstborn son.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jerry Christensen		</title>
		<link>https://ourrabbijesus.com/articles/under-the-passover-moon/#comment-27</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jerry Christensen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Mar 2009 19:41:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orj.mu.rocketwood.com/?p=313#comment-27</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I’m very pleased to have found this site. While not a seminary trained Bible scholar, I have been convicted in recent years to attempt to extract the Jewish Jesus from my westernized christian cultural perspective. I recently have been attending a Jewish discussion group at a nearby synagogue (I’m the only gentile there) studying small villages in Israel with more than the last 2000 years continuous Jewish presence. While discussing Biriya and Zefat, it was mentioned that some Kabbalists (who I’m making no attempt to connect Jesus with) traditionally go out into the olive groves to “sing in” shabbat. I immediately was reminded of the Matthew 26:30 and Mark 14:26 passages. Since Pesach would have been considered a holy day (a shabbat but not necessarily the seventh day of the week), it’s interesting to consider where “singing in the sabbath” might have come from.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I’m very pleased to have found this site. While not a seminary trained Bible scholar, I have been convicted in recent years to attempt to extract the Jewish Jesus from my westernized christian cultural perspective. I recently have been attending a Jewish discussion group at a nearby synagogue (I’m the only gentile there) studying small villages in Israel with more than the last 2000 years continuous Jewish presence. While discussing Biriya and Zefat, it was mentioned that some Kabbalists (who I’m making no attempt to connect Jesus with) traditionally go out into the olive groves to “sing in” shabbat. I immediately was reminded of the Matthew 26:30 and Mark 14:26 passages. Since Pesach would have been considered a holy day (a shabbat but not necessarily the seventh day of the week), it’s interesting to consider where “singing in the sabbath” might have come from.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Phil		</title>
		<link>https://ourrabbijesus.com/articles/under-the-passover-moon/#comment-25</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phil]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 19:41:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orj.mu.rocketwood.com/?p=313#comment-25</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dr. Sloss,

You are probably aware of this gentleman’s work already, but here are some possible theories that may resolve this:

http://doig.net/NTC21.htm

Shalom]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Sloss,</p>
<p>You are probably aware of this gentleman’s work already, but here are some possible theories that may resolve this:</p>
<p><a href="http://doig.net/NTC21.htm" rel="nofollow ugc">http://doig.net/NTC21.htm</a></p>
<p>Shalom</p>
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		<title>
		By: Phil		</title>
		<link>https://ourrabbijesus.com/articles/under-the-passover-moon/#comment-26</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phil]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:41:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orj.mu.rocketwood.com/?p=313#comment-26</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Also http://doig.net/NTC18.htm brings a little more clarity.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also <a href="http://doig.net/NTC18.htm" rel="nofollow ugc">http://doig.net/NTC18.htm</a> brings a little more clarity.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Lois Tverberg		</title>
		<link>https://ourrabbijesus.com/articles/under-the-passover-moon/#comment-24</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lois Tverberg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Feb 2009 19:40:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orj.mu.rocketwood.com/?p=313#comment-24</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dear Dr. Sloss -

A short answer to your question is that evidence throughout the gospels supports the conclusion that Jesus did celebrate the Passover meal with his disciples. I want to explain more thoroughly with some references. Be looking for a post on that soon.

Lois]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Dr. Sloss &#8211;</p>
<p>A short answer to your question is that evidence throughout the gospels supports the conclusion that Jesus did celebrate the Passover meal with his disciples. I want to explain more thoroughly with some references. Be looking for a post on that soon.</p>
<p>Lois</p>
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		<title>
		By: David Sloss		</title>
		<link>https://ourrabbijesus.com/articles/under-the-passover-moon/#comment-23</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Sloss]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 19:40:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://orj.mu.rocketwood.com/?p=313#comment-23</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Lois,

I appreciate so much the view from an Jewish perspective on our faith.  Thank you and keep up the good work!

I wonder whether we are correct in calling the supper which Jesus ate with His disciples (what we usually call the Last Supper) the Seder supper of Passover.

Some rationale:

1. Both Matthew’s and Mark’s account seems to have some confusing details claiming it was the “first day of Unleavened Bread” which usually begins the day after Passover. Consequently, how could the Passover meal be prepared if this time had already passed?
2. Luke helps us understand a little better with his stating that the day was the day on which the lambs were sacrificed, namely Nisan 14. (Luke 22:7ff) This suggests that we are prior to the eating of the Passover seder.
3. John gives us some interesting detail which rolls the clock back a bit in chapter 18: “They themselves (religious leaders seeking Jesus’ condemnation) did not enter the governor’s headquarters, so that they would not be defiled, but could eat the Passover.” This is after Jesus’ arrest, after the “Last Supper”, and the religious leaders are careful not to contaminate themselves so that they can eat the Passover, which is still coming!
4. Yes, the Feast of the Passover was at hand, but how can we rationalize the different accounts other than to suggest that the meal which Jesus ate with His talmidim was a meal prior to the Passover seder due to the fact that He, like all the Passover lambs, was slaughtered on the 14th of Nisan and buried late that day, prior to sundown because the Passover was approaching.
5. As I understand, we have in the Passover rituals practiced annually on the Temple Mount for hundreds of years, were rehearsals which were precisely reflected in the death of Jesus - at the same time of day, with the same words, and with the unique aspect of covering the sins of all who would believe.

Blessings on your work and I look forward to your continued writing!

Dr. David Sloss]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lois,</p>
<p>I appreciate so much the view from an Jewish perspective on our faith.  Thank you and keep up the good work!</p>
<p>I wonder whether we are correct in calling the supper which Jesus ate with His disciples (what we usually call the Last Supper) the Seder supper of Passover.</p>
<p>Some rationale:</p>
<p>1. Both Matthew’s and Mark’s account seems to have some confusing details claiming it was the “first day of Unleavened Bread” which usually begins the day after Passover. Consequently, how could the Passover meal be prepared if this time had already passed?<br />
2. Luke helps us understand a little better with his stating that the day was the day on which the lambs were sacrificed, namely Nisan 14. (Luke 22:7ff) This suggests that we are prior to the eating of the Passover seder.<br />
3. John gives us some interesting detail which rolls the clock back a bit in chapter 18: “They themselves (religious leaders seeking Jesus’ condemnation) did not enter the governor’s headquarters, so that they would not be defiled, but could eat the Passover.” This is after Jesus’ arrest, after the “Last Supper”, and the religious leaders are careful not to contaminate themselves so that they can eat the Passover, which is still coming!<br />
4. Yes, the Feast of the Passover was at hand, but how can we rationalize the different accounts other than to suggest that the meal which Jesus ate with His talmidim was a meal prior to the Passover seder due to the fact that He, like all the Passover lambs, was slaughtered on the 14th of Nisan and buried late that day, prior to sundown because the Passover was approaching.<br />
5. As I understand, we have in the Passover rituals practiced annually on the Temple Mount for hundreds of years, were rehearsals which were precisely reflected in the death of Jesus &#8211; at the same time of day, with the same words, and with the unique aspect of covering the sins of all who would believe.</p>
<p>Blessings on your work and I look forward to your continued writing!</p>
<p>Dr. David Sloss</p>
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